Author Topic: WORLD CUP 2010: Group D (Australia, Germany, Ghana, Serbia)  (Read 2648 times)

Levo

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THIS POST WILL BE UPDATED A FEW DAYS AFTER EACH MATCH. PLEASE CHECK BACK REGULARLY



Australia

Germany vs Australia

Starting Formation



Player Instructions                        
   Pos.            Role      Duty   
   GK      1 Mark SCHWARZER      Keeper      Defend   
   DL      11 Scott CHIPPERFIELD      Fullback      Support   
   DCl      3 Craig MOORE      Central Defender      Defend   
   DCr      2 Lucas NEILL      Limited Defender      Defend   
   DR      8 Luke WILKSHIRE      Wing-back      Attack   
   DMCc      16 Carl VALERI      Defensive midfielder      Defend   
   DMCr      13 Vince GRELLA      Defensive midfielder      Support   
   MCl      5 Jason CULINA      Ball-winning midfielder      Support   
   MR      7 Brett EMERTON      Winger      Support   
   FCl      4 Tim CAHILL      Deep-lying forward      Attack   
   FCr      19 Richard GARCIA      Deep-lying forward      Attack   
                        
Team Instructions                        
   Philosophy      Very rigid   
   Passing      Direct   
   Creative Freedom      Less   
   Closing Down      More   
   Tackling      Default   
   Marking      Man   
   Crossing      Float   
   Roaming      Default   
   Main Strategy      Counter   

Alternative shape when Australia went 2-0 down





Germany

Australia vs Germany

Starting Formation



Player Instructions                        
   Pos.            Role      Duty   
   GK      1 Manuel NEUER      Keeper      Defend   
   DL      14 Holger BADSTUBER      Fullback      Attack   
   DCl      17 Per MERTESACKER      Limited Defender      Defend   
   DCr      3 Arne FRIEDRICH      Limited Defender      Defend   
   DR      16 Philipp LAHM      Wing-back      Attack   
   DMCl      6 Sami KHEDIRA      Defensive midfielder      Support   
   DMCr      7 Bastian SCHWEINSTEIGER      Defensive midfielder      Defend   
   AML      10 Lukas PODOLSKI      Winger      Attack   
   AMC      8 Mesut OEZIL      Advanced playmaker      Attack   
   AMR      13 Thomas MUELLER      Winger      Attack   
   ST      11 Miroslav KLOSE      Poacher      Attack   
                        
Team Instructions                        
   Philosophy      Fluid   
   Passing      Short   
   Creative Freedom      More   
   Closing Down      Default   
   Tackling      Default   
   Marking      Default   
   Crossing      Default   
   Roaming      Default   
   Main Strategy      Attacking   



Ghana

Serbia vs Ghana

Starting Formation



Team Instructions                        
   Philosophy      Balanced   
   Passing      More direct   
   Creative Freedom      Default   
   Closing Down      Default   
   Tackling      Default   
   Marking      Default   
   Crossing      Float   
   Roaming      Default   
   Main Strategy      Balanced   
            

Player Instructions                        
   Pos.            Role      Duty   
   GK      22 Richard KINGSON      Keeper      Defend   
   DL      2 Hans SARPEI      Fullback      Support   
   DCl      15 Isaac VORSAH      Central Defender      Defend   
   DCr      5 John MENSAH      Limited Defender      Defend   
   DR      4 John PANTSIL      Fullback      Attack   
   DMC      6 Anthony ANNAN      Defensive midfielder      Defend   
   MCl      21 Kwadwo ASAMOAH      Ball-wining midfielder      Defend   
   MCr      23 Kevin Prince BOATENG      Central Midfielder      Support   
   MR      12 Prince TAGOE      Wide midfielder      Attack   
   AML      13 Andre AYEW      Winger      Attack   
   ST      Asamoah GYAN      Advanced forward      Attack   
                        
Team Instructions                        
   Philosophy      Rigid   
   Passing      Default   
   Creative Freedom      Default   
   Closing Down      Default   
   Tackling      Default   
   Marking      Man   
   Crossing      Default   
   Roaming      Default   
   Main Strategy      Counter   

Serbia

Ghana vs Serbia

Starting Formation



Player Instructions                        
   Pos.            Role      Duty   
   GK      1 Vladimir STOJKOVIC      Keeper      Defend   
   DL      3 Aleksandar KOLAROV      Fullback      Attack   
   DCl      13 Aleksandar LUKOVIC      Limited Defender      Defend   
   DCr      5 Nemanja VIDIC      Limited Defender      Defend   
   DR      6 Branislav IVANOVIC      Fullback      Support   
   MCl      11 Nenad MILIJAS      Central Midfielder      Defend   
   MCr      10 Dejan STANKOVIC      Central Midfielder      Support   
   ML      14 Milan JOVANOVIC      Winger      Attack   
   MR      17 Milos KRASIC      Winger      Attack   
   FCl      9 Marko PANTELIC      Poacher      Attack   
   STr      15 Nikola ZIGIC      Target man      Support   
                        
Team Instructions                        
   Philosophy      Balanced   
   Passing      More direct   
   Creative Freedom      Default   
   Closing Down      Default   
   Tackling      Default   
   Marking      Default   
   Crossing      Float   
   Roaming      Default   
   Main Strategy      Balanced   
   
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cricu90

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Re: WORLD CUP 2010: Group D (Australia, Germany, Ghana, Serbia)
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2010, 03:03:49 PM »
I know i shouldn't ask, but how do you make the image with tactics?

Levo

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Re: WORLD CUP 2010: Group D (Australia, Germany, Ghana, Serbia)
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2010, 03:21:48 PM »
Feel free to ask, Millie put each one of them together using PSP or GIMP

I'd suggest sending him a PM and see if he will share his secrets with you.
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Dr Naysay

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Re: WORLD CUP 2010: Group D (Australia, Germany, Ghana, Serbia)
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2010, 01:54:24 PM »
I like what you did with Germany, but I am not sure that Klose is a poacher or Podolski is a winger.

cagiva

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Re: WORLD CUP 2010: Group D (Australia, Germany, Ghana, Serbia)
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2010, 02:09:15 PM »
Klose tends to plays on the last defender's shoulder,aiming to search the empty channels,where to cut in/move in. He rarely offers something different than that in the team's overall buid-up play. His whole movement off the ball is very intelligent ( due to his personal inteligence and anticipation ),opening the space for the on-rushing wingers.

Podolski is not classic winger in terms of style of play - he rarely goes down the line,dribbling with the ball and crossing over and over again.  But he is not trully classic inside-forward,as he rarely tends to cut inside with the ball. His style is a mixture of both of them - he cut inside when he move off the ball,trying to ocupy the zones that is empty in his flank,or that which is opened up by Klose's movement. When he is with the ball he tries to give the team width - dribbling with it and trying to interplay with the others around him.
So his role should be winger/attack,at least in terms of FM.

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Re: WORLD CUP 2010: Group D (Australia, Germany, Ghana, Serbia)
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2010, 07:57:34 PM »
Having been to the match today in Cape Town I am still not sold on Klose as a poacher, he does a heck of a lot on the field.

cagiva

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Re: WORLD CUP 2010: Group D (Australia, Germany, Ghana, Serbia)
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2010, 08:24:13 PM »
Yes,he did.
But what he did was "poacher"'s job - moves into channels,open space for onrushing winger/attacking midfielder ; trying to be in every free inch in the opposition's area.

Did he drop deep ala van Persie/Bergkamp-mould ? Did he sets-up his teammates via beatiful through ball ? Did he goes wider to cross the ball or beat the opposite player in one-on-one situation. The answers is clearly "No". And that answer definies the difference between poacher and other types of forward.

Millie

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Re: WORLD CUP 2010: Group D (Australia, Germany, Ghana, Serbia)
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2010, 08:29:02 PM »
I think this is, in a way, a problem with the terminology of the tactics creator. When we say "limited defender" it's easy to think "oh, a defender who's shit". When we say poacher, it's easy to think "oh, Gary Lineker-type who does sweet f.a. for 89 minutes and then justifies his existence by stealing goals off other people".

I play Higuain and Benzema as "poachers" in FM, but both contribute quite a bit to the attacking play. However, they don't move much from the centre of the pitch and make no attempt to defend.

It's about getting players to move and behave in FM in a way approximating their real-life counterparts. From what I've seen of the Germans, poacher seems the best role in FM to recreate his style. But obviously, any debate is very welcome on this front.

Hope your enjoying it in South Africa, by the way.

Dr Naysay

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Re: WORLD CUP 2010: Group D (Australia, Germany, Ghana, Serbia)
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2010, 12:31:12 PM »
Guys thanks for the replies.

Millie the world cup has been amazing here, it is a shame there has been such schadenfreude on some peoples behalf because I personally have had an amazing experience.

I understand the reasons for putting Klose into the frame-work you have and how that affects the game. How has this worked in testing? If poacher works best to mimic what Klose does then so be it, i have not tried it, but it deffinately intrigues me somewhat to give it a go.

Cagiva, I repect your views a lot but I am disinclined to agree with you in this respect, just by looking at the repective heat-maps between both Higuain and Klose.

Higuain
http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/statistics/players/player=271550/heatmap,match=300061505.html

Klose
http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/statistics/players/player=182206/heatmap,match=300061505.html

Klose will hold the ball up, track back and pressure midfielders(He was at the half way line tackling a player when he was sent off) if anything(IMO) he is a hybrid a la how you described Podolski and Mueller in the other thread.(Which I think you did perfectly.) I don't mean in the respect that he is the same as those two but that he is a hybrid of different roles.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2010, 12:37:07 PM by Dr Naysay »

Millie

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Re: WORLD CUP 2010: Group D (Australia, Germany, Ghana, Serbia)
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2010, 12:43:39 PM »
A poacher who actually closes down then? I agree with you about the idea of him being a "hybrid". It appears, though, that his extra movement is without rather than with the ball. In sense that although he tracks back, he's not really tracking back when the team are in possession to pick it up deep and thread people in like Rooney, Forlan or Messi might do.

Interesting stuff, nonetheless.

We obviously haven't had time to test each of these systems as tactics in Football Manager, rather we've tried to translate what we know of FM into real life and then back again. From what I've seen of poachers in a 4-2-3-1, Klose's "with ball" movement should resemble what he does for Germany. Whether the "without ball" movement is entirely accurate is another matter.

Let's hope there's a heat map in FM11!

cagiva

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Re: WORLD CUP 2010: Group D (Australia, Germany, Ghana, Serbia)
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2010, 12:51:18 PM »
Quote
Klose will hold the ball up,


But he didn't do such as things time after time,after time,after time,after time and etc.
Yes,he did it several times,but this is not because his role requires such as behaviour,or due to his tactical instructions. It was due to certain match situations and personal skills of Klose ( such as workethic/will to press the nearest player ).

Quote
track back and pressure midfielders(He was at the half way line tackling a player when he was sent off)


Again - it was just a single situation. He is not pressing like Tevez,for example,right ? Nor he is holding the ball like Heskey,for example,right ?

A "poacher" doesn't mean he will stick to the penalty spot and doesn't move from there.

zagallo

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Re: WORLD CUP 2010: Group D (Australia, Germany, Ghana, Serbia)
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2010, 02:39:23 PM »
A view from the german side... 

Klose is L�ws favourite FC, because he tracks back all the time. That's what he constantly repeats in interviews over here.
His main function is to roam around the upper half of the pitch, chasing down the man in possession or dragging the DCs out of position, opening space for the midfielders. His physical attributes help a lot in that. What makes him special is that he is also able to quickly move into scoring positions right after it and to finish clinically.

That's why I wouldn't see him being a poacher - though he has some of his abilites and indeed rarely holds up the ball. Maybe he is more of a defensive forward. No glorious role, but a very effective one. Which suits Kloses style pretty well and maybe the reason why he is underrated very often.

On top I found some comments in zonalmarking.net on Klose:

Germany vs. Australia:
"Philip Lahm provided a constant outlet on the right-hand side and Miroslav Klose�s movement upfront dragged the two Australian centre-backs around all game."

Germany vs. England:
"Another reason for his excellent performance was the return of Klose, a really underrated player who is so much more than just a finisher. His movement is wonderful, he�s able to occupy both centre-backs at the same time, which leaves Ozil able to drift in unnoticed behind the defence."

"Upson put in a horrible performance and was exposed again when Klose�s drift to the flank took him out of position, creating space for Muller�s run into the centre."

"Klose (green) drops deep, dragging Upson (pink) towards the ball. Gareth Barry is looking at the ball, and lets Ozil (yellow) go free, and he has a glorious chance."

"Klose (yellow) this time drags Upson (pink, right) out of position again, this time to the flank. Terry (pink, left) is concerned about Ozil, and the gap in the centre of the pitch, between the green dots, is huge. Muller exploits the space Klose has created, and creates the second goal."

Does a poacher create that much space fo others? I don't think so.

And one last:
Here is a graphic what movements L�w wants from his players... (From a newspaper pretty close to him):









Dr Naysay

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Re: WORLD CUP 2010: Group D (Australia, Germany, Ghana, Serbia)
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2010, 02:56:54 PM »
Millie I agree with you that most of his movement is without the ball rather than with it. I actually think he has evolved quite a bit as a player and to be honest I have been quite surprised at his high work rate.

Anyway thanks for all your points it is an interesting debate.

Zagallo, some interesting points there. I don't want to drag this too far off topic but why do you think Van Gaal does not use Klose more? It strikes me that the way Klose plays for Germany is similar to the way Van Gaal uses the two forwards at Bayern.


zagallo

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Re: WORLD CUP 2010: Group D (Australia, Germany, Ghana, Serbia)
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2010, 04:18:42 PM »
Hmm... good question. I am not sure tbh, but some thoughts on it...

First, Klose (as well as Gomez) was injured when the season started � and Olic was doing more than well in the striker role. So no reason to change a lot in a team that had trouble to get used to LvGs philosophy anyway... Olic scored some crucial goals for the club which made him a fan favourite � made it even more difficult for LvG to leave him out.

Second, I guess he underrated him as well. Probably he saw him more as a kind of target man using his head to score (which he is good at and known for). Using two wingers who cut inside, a target man is of no great help � but a quick and agile striker who runs after every ball, opens up space and gets into open spaces...

Third, I feel that although Klose could play the role LvG is looking for, Olic plays it even better. Mainly relying on 3 attributes: speed, determination and work rate. Olic is much quicker then Klose. Together with Ribery, Robben and M�ller, they probably have the quickest attacking unit on the continent. � And: Klose needs 100% fitness to really excel in his role. Olic on the other hand still performs if both his legs are broken it seems...

Last, it could be that he simply does not suit his formation. I am still not sure how to describe LvGs setup. At times it looks like a 4231, more often like a 4411 or a 442 with M�ller as false 9? Maybe something in between. Klose plus M�ller won�t work, as both drop deep. Klose plus Olic won�t work as � even with all their differences � they are somehow similar in their style. So who should he pair Klose with? Gomez maybe � but that would keep Olic and M�ller out of the squad, two of the team�s key scorers and fan favourites, and keep two phlegmatic players in.

Difficult situation. Especially as 30-million-man Gomez is always on the bench... lol. Don�t think the club likes to see that investment being parked on the sideline, loosing value with every match he doesn�t play in. Maybe he can play differently when he finally gets a real playmaker with Kroos behind the strikers. Will be interesting the coming season...

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Re: WORLD CUP 2010: Group D (Australia, Germany, Ghana, Serbia)
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2010, 10:35:31 PM »
To be fair there are, in my opinion, significant inaccuracies in the German system posted here. Not least of all the fact that Schweinsteiger and Khedira are on the wrong sides.

There are also significant weaknesses in how the system is translated into FM via the TC, because FM and especially the TC lack the maturity to adequately define and produce certain behaviours.

For a start it is not possible to replicate the formation shown in the German screenshot in FM because actual DM's sitting in DM positions have no RFD instructions whatsoever. Either the players start in midfield positions with reduced mentality or they have no RFD. And again the only CM positions with RFD are the higher mentality positions, therefore your options in FM via the TC to attempt to simulate the German midfield is either deep positioning with no movement, or advanced positioning with movement and this requires that the players start from CM positions and not DM positions.

That's not a flaw of the diagram posted here, but it is a flaw in both the instructions posted here in comparison to the diagram, and a fundamental flaw in the TC itself.


The second significant issue is the function of the Wide Attacking players. The description of the German system here has the German wide players as Winger Attack. The non-obvious effect of this instruction is that the German Wide Players will regularly get ahead of the Oezil Advanced Playmaker role through a combination of higher Mentality and more RFD instructions which is the complete opposite of the function of the Oezil role. The German widemen are tasked with a high Mentality position, RFD Often, Hug Touchline, RWB Often and Cross Ball Often. This is significantly different from their actual ingame function of making runs from an actually deep position, involving themselves in wide build-up play, and then attacking the box as the defence is overloaded. The error here is that their role in overloading the flanks with pass-and-move and a final ball into an overloaded centre after overloading and removing the wide defenders from play has been interpreted as advanced, aggressive and direct wingplay. A subtle issue but an important one.


Perhaps the most fundamental error in the entire explanation of the system is the function and role of Oezil. If Oezil ever operates as a playmaker he does so from the byline after having split the defenders channels and looking for overloading runners from deep. Oezil most certainly does not function as a playmaker behind the German wingers, and the German widemen most certainly do not spend the entire match in positions more advanced than Oezil. The entire premise of the German system is the precise opposite, with Oezil ripping past the German widemen, carrying markers with him or driving unmarked into channel positions that are entireally ripe for a throughball precisely because the German widemen are waiting and watching for his run. The attacking runs of Oezil beyond the German widemen and beyond Klose into the channels is the absolutely fundamental premise of the German system.

If the Creative Freedom and Mentality of Oezil defining his starting position in the team before a run is correct, then every single other detail regarding Oezil and the rest of the German system in detail is completely wrong. It is the runs of Oezil from deep in conjuction to the overlapping runs of the German Fullbacks that completely destroys the opponents flanks and produces the consistent overloading of the opponents Central Defenders. Oezil and Lahm race past Mueller at exactly the same time, ripping the opposing Fullback to shreds, forcing the near side Centreback across to deal with the threat, leaving Klose and Podolski on either side of the remaining Centreback for a tap in. Or in Podolski's case a 130 mph howitzer unmarked from 10 yards out into the bottom corner.

Indeed it should also be pointed out that the German midfielders, Schweinsteiger and Khedira, are employed in offensive roles intended precisely to maximise this overloading of the flank areas. It is the job of these players to advance up whichever flank is being targetted in order to offer a fourth passing option to the combination of Widemen + Fullback + Oezil ripping open the channels. It is the combination of Fullback + Wide Man + RFD DM + Oezil that is intended precisely to overload the flanks, miss out the "defence-in-depth-of-the-centre" completely, pull a Centreback across and therefore leave the Centre Forward + Opposite Side Wide Man + Direct Runners From Deep on the Attacking Side once flank overload has been achieved to outnumber the Centre of the remaining defenders.

The entire premise is simple and potent. Push the ball wide, hold it up. Whatever side the ball is on then the players on that side get forward, the AMC gets forward on that side, the ball carrier plays a pass into the overloaded fullback zone and the rest get into the box for the delivery. This cannot occur in the formation described at the start of this thread.


The next question regards Klose. Klose has played two distinct roles as I can tell from this World Cup.

The first role Klose has played is as the genuine Centreforward that holds positions, pins Centrebacks and as the overloading flank play develops finds himself with an easy near post finish. The second role Klose has played, most clearly in the match against England, is the role of pulling either deep or pulling extremely wide to pull defenders completely out of position and allow runners from deep to gut the completely AWOL centre of defence in huge numbers after Klose plays a simple pass.

Klose does not "move into channels" at all. His job is A: to stick completely in the middle as a genuine targetman, or B: to drop incredibly deep/move right to the touchline. Both of these roles facilitate the removal of Centrebacks from the game, but do so in different ways. The rest of the team tends to play exactly the same, but depending upon the precise nature and quality of the opponents Centre of Defence, Klose will carry out one of these two key roles.


So in short the Germant diagram posted here looks nice, looks reasonably accurate in terms of shape and positioning, but in terms of detail it is my opinion that not only are individual roles inaccurate, but the entire concept of the system is flawed. And that is before the problems of translation to the TC.

cagiva

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Re: WORLD CUP 2010: Group D (Australia, Germany, Ghana, Serbia)
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2010, 09:49:15 AM »
And I still think that this diagram and these tactical instructions are the nearest think we can recreate in FM.

If you don't think so - ok,tell your alternatives.

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Re: WORLD CUP 2010: Group D (Australia, Germany, Ghana, Serbia)
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2010, 04:01:24 PM »
Some very good points SFraser but as Cagiva points out how do you put those points in to practice on F.M?

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Re: WORLD CUP 2010: Group D (Australia, Germany, Ghana, Serbia)
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2010, 11:08:45 PM »
I played around with the Germany system for a while on my FM save and the lack of deeper Mentality roles with increased RFD and vice versa for players operating in similar levels is quite obvious and a big hinderence. It is indeed very difficult to get an accurate German system going using the TC.

I do think though that the behaviour of the Wingers is a little off. The formation in this thread does produce numbers in the box, but it produces numbers in the box at the start of moves as targets for passes from the fullbacks and CM/DM's which I am not convinced is the way the German system is meant to operate. I also think that there is a lack of defensive behaviour from the Wingers.

Personally I would consider looking at Defensive Winger Support roles for the wideplayers, possibly in conjuction with a Central Midfielder Attack role for Oezil. This does produce perhaps slightly too defensive behaviour and positioning from the team, but the construction of moves looks more realistic with the Wingers moving both inside or outside with the ball, holding up the ball for players to advance beyond them, and finding space around the edge of the box as moves on the opposite side of the pitch build up and are held up to wait for runners. It also produces a much clearer distinction of the depth of play between wingers and striker so that instead of three forwards in a line at all times during play you have a clear Centreforward sitting on the shoulder of the last man infront of two wider players that track back, and with a Forward Role that has Moves Into Channels the striker will move around quite a lot and pull the defence around with him.

The movement of the Oezil role is still a bit too deep in this setup, but the movement is along the lines it should be, penetrating runs towards either side of the striker, in advance of the wingers. I didn't manage to try out this role with Oezil himself, who has significantly better movement, pace and creativity then the player I was using and a lot less workrate so he should be less likely to track back regularly and start from deeper positions.

I would also make a point that the Klose Centreforward role should be carefully considered for each match depending on whether you want a juggernaut pushing the defence backwards and maintaining a central position and central range of movement at all times, or you want to see your striker pulling wide as counter-attacks build. The behaviour of the striker will define the movement and behaviour of Oezil so if like the match against Australia you want to see Oezil overlapping at the same time as Fullbacks down the channels you need a relatively static striker role. If you want to see the behaviour such as shown against England where Klose shifts the defence around constantly and creates space for players to burst through the centre then you need a fairly mobile striker role. Whatever the striker does from his now more advanced position relative to the rest of the team will define how the wingers and midfielders behave when making their attacking runs.

And there is also an arguement perhaps in support of a Balanced Philosophy, maybe coupled to a Counter Strategy. The Fluid Philosophy in such a positionally distinctive formation tends to promote distinct bands of play with a defensive half of the team playing a fluid attacking game and the attacking half of the team playing a fluid attacking game, therefore preserving the distinction of bands or layers. The Balanced Philosophy exaggerates roles but does so in a way that the attacking Fullbacks and the Defensive Wingers tend to reduce the literal gap between them caused by significantly different positioning and equivelant mentalities. The Fluid philosophy does not infact produce a fluid arrangement of players on the pitch, whereas the role exaggerating effects of the Balanced Philosophy does. It also has the knock-on effect of pushing the Central Midfield Attack role into a very aggressive mentality and RFD framework from a deeper position than the Defensive Wingers.

I did not try Counter-Attack strategy myself, but while it would reduce Mentalities even further during general play and produce a more conservative approach to the game in general, it would replicate the tendency for the German wingers to attack with direct and aggressive runs whenever the counter-attack opportunity is presented, while toning down their aggression and direct play when in possession of the ball in attacking areas against numerous opponents with build-up opportunities. But as I said I did not test that to exactly how it plays out. And while it may not replicate the performance seen against Australia, it may very well replicate the performance seen against England and Argentina. Though if testing the Counter Attack strategy you may want to change Defensive Winger Support to simple Winger Support in order not to get too caught up in defensive duties nor indeed slow the game down too much when constructing play in advanced areas.

Either way I think that experimenting with this German formation in the OP only serves to reinforce the problem with the TC that is a lack of increased RFD for reduced Mentality players beyond the Forward Roles. The Forward Roles have by far the greatest quantity and depth of options, and ironicly seem to lack a RFD option for lone Strikers such as perhaps the role played by Villa in the Cup Final. The AM/MF/DM roles by contrast lack aggressive RFD roles that are coupled to reduced Mentality so that any aggressive movement designed into a formation from these areas must necessarilly come with aggressive positioning instructions. The opposite is also true, players with a preference for deeper positioning will not ever display aggressive attacking run behaviour.

This is only a subtle flaw in the TC but I do think it is a significant flaw. Personally I would suggest that one of the major priorities for future development of the TC would be to ensure that there is a large range of Position versus RFD instructions, indeed perhaps most or all combinations of Positioning + RFD should be looked at as a priority as shape and movement between layers is very often more important in football than defining subtleties of how to use the ball once in possession of it. There are many ways to tell players to slow down a match, to choose more conservative options, or to attack aggressively but there are very few options if any outside of RFD + Mentality to define the positioning of players and whole range of options to define Runs From Deep from actual Deep Positions are missing from the AM/MF/DM positions. In short an entire set of positional based movement tactical concepts are missing from the TC.

It's still a great addition to the game none the less.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2010, 11:29:17 PM by SFraser »

jolley1513

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Re: WORLD CUP 2010: Group D (Australia, Germany, Ghana, Serbia)
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2010, 10:20:00 PM »
I have used both Millie's and SF Fraser interpretations of the German 4-2-3-1 for years managing FC Coln in the Bundesliga, and have had greater success with Millie's version.  The problem I've found in Fraser's version in FM terms is that, like he said may be the case, we tend to be too defensive and struggle in creating opportunities. 

That said, I was fascinated with both interpretations of the the system and want to laud both of them copiously. 

Millie

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Re: WORLD CUP 2010: Group D (Australia, Germany, Ghana, Serbia)
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2010, 11:19:39 AM »
I have to admit, however, that it's cagiva's version, not mine. These research threads were a group effort.

Mazen96

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Re: WORLD CUP 2010: Group D (Australia, Germany, Ghana, Serbia)
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2010, 10:51:39 AM »
The Germany system is flawed, just as SFraser pointed out, first of all Klose is not a poacher, he is more of a Deep lying/Complete forward.Second,Schweinsteiger is neither a defensive midfielder nor has his duty on defence; how do you explain the fact that he's had the most assists in the world cup, he's definitely a deep lying playmaker with support duty.Third; Muller and Podolski are not on attack duty, they are tasked with fallling back and forming the first defensive line with the DMs, that's support duty. And then you have the DCs, they are not limited defenders, whenever Mertesacker got beaten, Friedrich was there to sweep up (Just check the Ghana match).And last of all Ozil should be trequarista on attack duty because he's given something like a free role for Germany, and trequarista allows him to roam freely, and because Klose acts as a false 9; Ozil acts as a 9.5 or a "false 10", just as this article(http://www.tomwfootball.com/2010/06/16/world-cup-tactics-after-the-false-nine-the-false-10/) points out.A false 10 can be translated to a trequarista in FM, because Messi is seen as the typical false 10; and Messi can be qualified as a Trequarista in FM.

Which leads to my interpretation:

GK- Neuer ( Keeper) defend
DL- Boateng ( Fullback) attack
DR- Lahm (Wingback) attack
DC-Mertesacker (Central Defender) defend
DC- Friedrich (Central Defender) cover
DMC-Schweinsteiger (Deep Lying Playmaker) support
MC/DMC- Khedira (Box to Box) support (Khedira played slightly higher than schweinsteiger, but wasn't involved as much in build up play+ He had the highest distance covered/minutes played)
AML- Podolski (Winger; i thought of playing him at inside forward at first but he has defensive duties) support
AMC- Ozil (Trequarista) Attck
AMR- Muller (Winger) support
FC- Klose( Deep Lying/Complete Forward)Attack

Although i'm still confused about Muller because he scored the most goals and all of them were from the penalty  box; which tempts me to play him as an inside forward, but that would minimize his defensive duties.

Another note about the wingers, you can replicate their real behavior by putting them on winger/support, but they need the PPM gets into opposition area, as they don't cut inside robben or ribery style and all of their goals are from in side the area, and this PPM cannot be teached IIRC.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2010, 12:29:21 PM by Mazen96 »