For those of you who may not know Goal-Kick run a monthly feature known as the Goal-Kick Panel, it’s essentially the internet equivalent of getting people together in a pub and discussing matters that interest them - in this case Football Manager and the Community. It’s an enjoyable, inoffensive read which occasionally raises some interesting issues, none more so than their recent New Year Special which brought together a number of prominent Community webmasters and Administrators in order to air their opinions (link). Unfortunately, it seems that some invites were lost in the Christmas post and as a result neither FM-B, nor the FM-Portal were represented. Having read the discussion that took place, both sites felt that they had something to add to the discussion. Here are the results…

1. Going by the lack of new sites being opened, do you think, in a sense, that the scene has matured a bit in the last few months, or that people aren’t really bothered about the power-hungriness any more?

Rob (FM-Portal) - There’s been more sites this past month than any other month since…. well probably the blog revolution of last January/February, so I hardly think this question warrants any response at all.

On the subject of less being done though, I’ve recently been giving time to the idea that perhaps my site, the FM-Portal, has detrimentally effected the scene. You see its given people a true perspective of what the scene is and what its made up of, something that hasn’t been available before and I think, a lot of people have released firstly the futility of it all and secondly quite how much work it takes to make something worthwhile, something which most people can’t be bothered to do upon realisation.

There’s also the fact that making sites has become to easy, I think the blog revolution of last January killed the scene, because all those people who started blogs, where the people that had the ambitions of making sites, after they’d had a little go at it, they’d realised it wasn’t all it cracked up to be so left it alone. Where as if they’d actually taken the time and put a lot of effort into it, they wouldn’t have given up anywhere near as easily.

So really, its a combination of those two things in a way, but that sums it all up really.

The next Diaby (Tactical Admin - FM-Britain) - Is there a lack of new sites? Is there need to surf a certain number of sites per day to collect wrong and lousy information? If a site like Get Sacked! would be opened once a year, it would make a fantastic community within a short time.

Power-hungriness? I thought a community is about giving help, producing content, adding value. If it is about something else, I may have missed an important point. Not that I would regret having missed that.

Gaz (FM-B Owner) - I personally believe that most things are catered for on the Scene atm. The sites that concentrate on specific areas cover these areas well (eg FMGLive - Graphics), and as most sites are started by the power hungry and popularity craving members of the Scene, they can’t see a way to make their site “Da Bestest”. I am a big fan of Get Sacked! though, which was started not that long ago really. A real gem of a site.

Keith (LLM Admin - FM-Britain) - I really couldn’t say. I rarely venture out into the ‘scene’ much and when I have, I’ve encountered the same type of immaturity I’ve seen every other time.

2. Lots of sites are predicting a post-Christmas slump whereby people will be stuck in with their new gadgets and gizmos they got. Do you think activity will rise again before or after the imminent release of the February 8.0.2 FM patch?

Gaz - A few sites are still in their slump from last year. Take Susie. According to their site stats, they have the grand total of 30 articles for FM07, and 0 for FM08. At least 30% of these articles at first glance appear to be press releases about FM07. Then there’s Throw-In. Once a brilliant site, constantly updated with a steady stream of decent articles. Since their unfortunate loss and relaunch, they’ve added, what, 6 articles - more if you include the ones not about the game? GK aren’t much better either. The only sites that haven’t really appeared to have any type of slump are here, the Portal and FMGLive.

Keith - Activity is cyclical; sometimes it’s quiet, sometimes it gets busy. Longevity is key - the sites that last are those that foster their own loyal regulars and are usually run by people who do it because they enjoy it, not those looking for publicity or popularity. Personally I never try to predict anything and simply react to my own moods, bursts of creativity and in response to the site’s users. If it gets quiet, I just take the opportunity to have more time with my other interests. It doesn’t worry me.

I’ve been playing this game for 15 odd years, and will probably be playing it for at least 15 more… so I’m not going anywhere!

The next Diaby - Is this something like the AI cracking tactics? FM-B had a huge traffic in January 07 and hopefully will have in 08 again. Maybe it is content doing the trick again?

Rob - If people are predicting slumps they should do something about it shouldn’t they? There’s only a slump because a certain type of content is no longer popular for that period of time, in which case people should use their brains and offer another type of content, rather than just moaning about a post Christmas slump.

If anything there should be a boom due to the amount of people getting FM for Xmas.

3. A lot of boards are questioning the uses of having front pages before the forums. Do you think main sites are important pre-forum steps, or should they generally be done away with on certain discussion sites?

Keith - I personally set my bookmark to the forum index, but with some sites they can be a useful first stop. The front page of our LFS site, for example contains information on our team’s online status (with links to join us on a server), and other useful information. The forum is usually most people’s second stop there. It all depends on the type of front page/type of site you are…

Rob - Most sites are poor, don’t offer much to the average and are rarely updated, so what’s the point in having one? On the same point, a lot of forums are pretty inactive and are constantly trying to drum up more activity.

In all honesty I think there’s too much of both. Forums should be the main thing in the community, because that’s what the majority of people enjoy spending their time on, I refuse to believe that team guides are a fun hobby for someone, its just not true, so sites that just offer bland guides, should be done away with, most are only their because of the unwritten laws of the scene anyway and new members don’t care about that.

There’s still a fantastic opportunity for somebody to make a forum only site, FM Formation have done it with mild success, but its a bit of a mess, if somebody took the time and built a community based site, where everything was community powered then that would be fantastic.

At the moment front pages and forums are far to separate, perhaps if some sites came up with a basic static front page, offering the main info and hints and tips and acting as a portal to the forum, highlighting useful and interesting threads etc then that’d be better, but the way it is now, just screams of laziness and lack of creativity.

Gaz - They already have on most sites haven’t they? Most smaller sites with a forum appear to be adding any type of content solely for the purpose of inclusion in Rob’s Digests to add a few extra hits to their stats; the larger ones couldn’t give a monkeys and just live off their old reputation.

The next Diaby - You can have front pages, back pages and side pages or no pages at all. The only question that does matter is: do you have something to say or not?

4. Why do you think the scene tends to disassociate itself from both the XBox 360 and PSP Handheld versions of the game?

Rob - Because the scene is full of sheep who follow what others do, they don’t think for themselves, they see graphics are popular they decide to make graphics, if people actually thought for themselves they would see there were two niche markets there and look to conquer those areas.

I’m constantly at a loss to understand peoples lack of common sense, so I don’t really have an answer for this, other than just that…. people don’t have common sense, if they did they would look to expand to include these two games.

The next Diaby - Because it is another platform? Because nobody does actually play these games on those platforms since it must be a hell using the interface? Because maybe like me nobody else has a clue about it? Because folks do not shut down their game stations to get advice on the web? Is it really a question that does matter? I do not even feel competent to comment on this at all.

Keith - I didn’t realise it did, but I suppose that for many on the existing scene, it’s almost a completely different game so perhaps there isn’t as much interest - I know I have none in those versions myself.

However, if the game becomes popular on those platforms then they will become part of the ‘scene’ whether people like it or not. For those interested in such things, it would be better to be prepared to take advantage of the user base that popularity on those platforms would bring.

Gaz - It’s probably because most “Sceners” would be playing FM in the background while browsing various sites looking for tips and so on - something not really possible on the PSP or the 360, so there hasn’t really been any call for sites concentrating on these platforms. That and the PSP version was too basic for my liking.

Site specific question - Where did the idea for the Portal come from? Why create a site that delivers other people’s content more than your own (I realise you have your own, such as the FM Time Machine etc, but a large part of Portal business is related to the work of others)?

Rob - The portal started very small, as just a directory of fansites, it was stolen from this site originally and was really just a way for me to learn how to code.

Eventually it grew to become a “f**k you” to SI. Basically saying if a 16 year old (at the time) can do this, why can’t SI do anything? From there its just grown and grown, as I come up with new ideas, I’m very ambitious and want my site to be the best, I won’t lie and say its about the love of the game etc, I really do just want my site to be the best.

Its still mainly about learning to code etc and that’s why I’m so good at adding new features, even little ones, I add at least a feature a week, even if its just something small like allowing categories to be viewed as a list as well as in the instant loading screenshot viewer, and that’s because I’m constantly learning about new things and wanting to understand them better.

This is all starting pay off now, as I run 4 different sites and have plans for more in 2008.

So really that’s what its all about, I wanted to learn how to code, not to write articles or guides about the game.

I also only make sites that I myself would enjoy and I was always looking for guides, because to be honest I’m pretty crap at FM, so having them all in one place like this was fantastic and I use it probably more than anyone.

Site specific question - FM-B has a reputation as being one of, if not the best, places for tactical information on the internet. Few sites can compare with the Tactical Bible work and the depth of discussion and investigation of every facet of the match engine, but yet the site is also the home of a thriving LLaMa community, a group of people who exist at the polar opposite of the FM forum from tactical/good player discussion. How is this possible? Do you feel that success in one of these areas could ever hinder success in the other?

Keith - It’s possible because firstly we have specialist staff dedicated to those areas - the tactical staff were all cherry picked from the best the scene had to offer, and the LLM staff are all dedicated, dyed in the alpaca wool LLaMas. We all have a mutual respect for each other, with no big egos to cause trouble, and we all get on very well, which helps of course.

In addition, the people who run the site and the majority of people who visit it are mature, reasonably intelligent adults, so to our way of thinking, there needn’t be any clash whatsoever - all that’s needed is a mutual respect for each person’s right to play however they wish and to avoid personalities who take pleasure in belittling or spoiling other people’s enjoyment of the game.

Strong moderation is also key. All FM-B’s moderators and administrators are on the same page as regards the type of poster we want on the forum, regardless of which area they might be interested in. A very low tolerance towards abuse, idiocy, wind ups and the kind of bad natured posting you see elsewhere tends to encourage more mature (regardless of actual age), reasoned people to stick around. We may have sacrificed quick popularity because of this ‘choosiness’, but there isn’t a single member of staff who regrets this approach.

We do have one mechanism in place to filter out ‘restricted’ content for any LLaMas who wish it - becoming an LLM specific member (either on joining the site or upon request) makes the tactics, player and database update areas of the site non-accessible. This is not just to help LLaMas avoid temptation (most don’t need to), but it allows users to customise their FM-B experience to suit their preferences.

All these factors have resulted in two diametrically opposed playing styles being able to co-exist quite happily on the same site, with hardly any of the problems seen, for example, at the SI forum.

The success of one should have no bearing on the other, because we tend to attract different types of FM players - there is occasionally some crossover (myself having made the switch from tactics to LLM not long after my introduction to the FM scene), but a minority area like LLM will only ever attract a small number of members compared to the overall FM user base, the majority of which will always look for the kind of tactical help FM-B excels at.

The LLM philosophy is that players who play, or who might want to play this way will find us and therefore we feel no particular need or desire to ‘promote’ LLM and strive for popularity, so any success we achieve will always be measured, by myself at least, far more by the quality of our posters and the atmosphere of our forum than by numbers. Of course I notice when the LLM membership grows and the forum is busy, but I generally never concern myself with that kind of thing otherwise.

All we can do is to continue to do what we enjoy, try to foster an atmosphere that suits the type of people we are, and if others appreciate our efforts and either or both areas become successful (however measured) then that’s a bonus. There’s no sense of ‘competition’ between the different areas, that’s for sure.

Gaz - I think we’re benefiting from being a fairly small community in that it’s very easy to spot those who get out of line and deal with them swiftly and accordingly. Thankfully, not many people do step out of line, apart from the odd few who demand instant answers then choose not to agree with any advice given as it would be too easy.

The next Diaby - The answer is mutual respect and communication and the motto ‘each to his own’, but the strong common point is the love for the game. Many tacticians are very much attracted by the LLM section and do have every respect for this, while obviously the LLaMas respect the quality of tactical work done at FM-Britain, which may require as much passion as playing a pure LLM game. After all, FM Discussion has become a partially thrilling melting pot of tacticians and LLM, and the discussions of both camps can be highly interesting while both sides seem to enjoy having this opportunity. The only camp really suffering from this is the camp of moaners, since it does not really have any chance at FM-Britain. The Llamas are way too tough to accept endless whining, the tactical forums offer too many solutions to get stuck with whining.

In that way LLM and T&T have a very similar way of looking at the game, and far more in common than with usual moaners, who often set the tone on other forums.

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I’d like to thank Rob, Gaz, Keith and The next Diaby for taking the time to express their opinions so honestly, I’m sure there’s something there to make everyone think and perhaps spark a little discussion. I hope you’ll also agree that this is a great start to the new Community Discussion area and that you’re looking forward to similar items in the future.